Hitting dirt at the apex of a turn on a twisty mountain road... on two wheels. 

"Vee Ate Injun" (VeeAteInjun) 09/08/2016 at 17:48 • Filed to: Two Wheels Good, Two wheels not so bad

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How do you save it?

Because I saved it, but not really sure how I did it. I went for a big ride this past weekend and was on a beautiful (and empty) mountain road. I was riding relatively cautious - not quite spirited - but more of a “enjoy the view” kinda ride. As I entered a turn I noticed some of the dirt/rocks on the shoulder were scattered into the asphalt a bit. No sooner did I think to myself “Dirt on the road, I better keep a heads up” that I saw the patch of dirt right in the middle of my riding line. I hit it and immediately felt the loss of traction and the bike began the “baby’s first lowside” dance under me. I put my foot down and pushed off to bring the bike back up. And it worked. I can’t remember what I did with my hands - I probably grabbed the clutch and rolled off the throttle, and maybe applied some front brake?

I wasn’t going super fast. I think I was going around 30 mph, give or take. So it wouldn’t have been catastrophic, bur it wouldn’t have been a good day if I went down. I credit the save half to my leg and the other half to the fact that my bike is around 385 lbs wet. Now, I’m not sure if I would have been able to save it if I had been on a bigger, heavier bike (like the adventure bike I contemplated renting for this trip).

So... what’s your experience with saving yourself from going down due to debris on the turn?

CRider > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 17:59

4

A dab of oppo and a handful of throttle can’t hurt.

Nauraushaun > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 17:59

2

This is part of the reason motorbikes scare me. Regular, expected situations become either “I saved it but I don’t know why” or “I fell off and got killed”. To think there are people out there who think they don’t need their gear - anything can happen, whether you’re alert or not.

CRider > Nauraushaun 09/08/2016 at 18:06

1

That’s why it’s so important to learn on dirt- it’ll teach you what happens when traction disappears and that yes, you can save it, and no, dropping the bike doesn’t mean instant death. Gear is still important, though. People navigating winding roads on 900 lb road hogs that have all the torque in the world but have no idea how to actually ride when things get loose are going to get themselves hurt.

RallyWrench > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 18:11

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Nice save, I imagine that’s a pretty good way to break a leg if you get it wrong. I was going to suggest get a leg out and grab some throttle to straighten up, but I can’t ride for shit.

Vee Ate Injun > CRider 09/08/2016 at 18:13

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Yeah, I need to get out on a dirt bike one of these days (in a controlled environment - like a school).

Thankfully, I was wearing gear but I’d rather keep my bike rubber side down and dent-free.

Vee Ate Injun > CRider 09/08/2016 at 18:13

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Truth. (also, it looks so effortless)

Vee Ate Injun > RallyWrench 09/08/2016 at 18:18

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Yeah, now I’m at the point where I’m analyzing the scenario and grading my performance.

Afterwards I thought of straightening out/ reducing the lean angle but that would have sent me into the the opposite lane. This stretch of road was empty but some other similar scenario could have oncoming traffic so I have to keep thinking.

bob and john > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 18:19

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you can straight the bike out and keep the same turn. just lean with your body.

bob and john > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 18:19

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counter steer slightly, add throttle to shift the weight to the back, and for the love of god, LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO.

JEM > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 18:27

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I did the exact same thing this spring riding route 16 in Virginia. Back tire started to slide out halfway through a right hand turn. Touched a foot down and throttled it out a bit to stand the bike back up.

You can definitely break a foot/ankle/leg doing this but at low (35 or under let’s say) speed I feel like this is an acceptable maneuver. The thing to do is NEVER brake because you will lose control. A slight bit more throttle should help the bike stand up (or just maintain throttle) hence the old bike adage “when in doubt, throttle out”. Mostly you just need to ride it out as the slide will probably be brief and the bike will stand itself up once it gains traction again in a second. You do need to be prepared for the “when it gains traction again” bit because any more than constant/light throttle will get you into a tankslapper and turn a low side into a high side. It kind of all depends on fast/controlled you are going into the turn.

Suggestion: hit a track day and practice sliding your back tire out of turns using the throttle:

AfromanGTO > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 18:36

3

You left out the part where your sphincter clinched the seat.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 18:51

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Stay in it. Let the bike slide a bit, let the handle bars rotate a bit. It will catch soon.

When the back end slides, you gotta stay in it.

Flynorcal shifts in his bucket seats > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 18:52

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I hit a fallen tree branch a number of years ago while leaned way over going around a turn in the dark. Pro tip: don’t do that — I was being an idiot.

The guy behind me said he was sure I was going to die but he was glad that I hit the branch as it shattered out of his way so he didn’t have to have his own code brown. (Yr welcome)

I saved my ass by standing back up straight and diving back into the turn once the wheels settled. Luckily nobody was coming the other way, as I nearly went off the opposite shoulder getting things back under control. I’m pretty sure I hit the brakes some too but not enough to upset the balance by very much. Who knows. More luck than anything.

Vee Ate Injun > Nauraushaun 09/08/2016 at 18:53

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But is that also part of the appeal to some? The “danger” factor?

Me? I'm just trying to enjoy myself while mitigating risk as much as possible. Most of the time...

Vee Ate Injun > bob and john 09/08/2016 at 18:55

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So reduce lean angle on bike, increase lean angle on body?

Vee Ate Injun > Flynorcal shifts in his bucket seats 09/08/2016 at 18:58

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Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like the answer will always be PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.(Also: mileage mileage mileage)

bob and john > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 18:59

3

yep. see how far off the bike I’m leaning here? If I was straight up and down (with the bike) the peg would be scraping the ground at that speed.(And this was still when i was working on my body positioning, so it isnt great.

this last photo is more how it should be

kissing the mirror, butt 1/2 off the seat, inside peg with your weight on it, power on :D

Vee Ate Injun > bob and john 09/08/2016 at 19:03

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Truth. But damn I hate it when the right thing to do seems counter-intuitive. Wish I had a multi-camera video of the incident to analyze what I did right and wrong.

All signs point to me doing a workshop/school /track day to practice these concepts.

Flynorcal shifts in his bucket seats > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 19:03

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Fair point about practice. I spent hours and hours on that bike practicing panic stops (along with wheelies and endos and super tight turns both slow and at speed) in an empty parking lot near my college.

Between the branch and the guy losing a washing machine out of the pickup in front of me on the freeway, I have no idea what the luck/reflex ratio was. The guy who lost the pickup truck bedliner that shot over my head in a blink on an eye was 100% luck. It was over me before I could have done a goddamn thing about it. Didn’t even scare me until a few minutes later.

Vee Ate Injun > Future next gen S2000 owner 09/08/2016 at 19:04

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Hmmm... At what point does “staying in it” become a lowside? Like they say, how do you know your limits until you exceed them?

Vee Ate Injun > AfromanGTO 09/08/2016 at 19:05

2

That detail is a given.

#skidmarks

bob and john > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 19:08

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it take practice.

you know where I first learned part of this stuff? racing mountian bikes. esp how/when to steer. You dont grab on for dear life and try to force the bars in a direction. that ends badly. loosen your arms, steer with your eyes. if its saveable, the bike will sort itself out. I was having a LOT of fun at the start of the season down one of the twisty roads near thunder bay. Lots and LOTS of gravel/sand. ABS meant I couldn’t “Back it in” like the Supermoto guys, but dropping a gear and purposely not rev matching and dumping the clutch broke the tire free and I was more or less sliding the whole 20KM road. it was great.

the cleaning up after.....not so much.

Vee Ate Injun > Flynorcal shifts in his bucket seats 09/08/2016 at 19:10

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Shite. I try to not ride behind pick up trucks with crap in the bed, but I never thought about a bedliner trying to my head from my body. Yikes.

Still haven’t tried wheelies on my bike, tho I don’t think I have the torque! (Side note: my coworker’s RSV4 has an anti-wheelie setting, because #loadsoftorque )

Future next gen S2000 owner > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 19:11

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Once the front starts to slip, that is when you low side. At least in my experience. I guess it would be possible to have both tires slip and not low side but I can’t really think through that in my head.

Vee Ate Injun > bob and john 09/08/2016 at 19:15

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Ah, I see it now that you point it out. Reminds me of the “monkeys” that lean in motorcycle sidecar races. Thanks for the helpful pics.

Vee Ate Injun > bob and john 09/08/2016 at 19:21

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Nice.

I’d like to think that my reflexes are summoning the time I spent on mountain bikes tearing down single tracks... but that was almost 20 years ago. Though I do credit it with my ability to scan far down the road and also right in front of me for possible hazards... like that patch of sand/dirt I hit.

Vee Ate Injun > Future next gen S2000 owner 09/08/2016 at 19:23

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That's when you hop off while still holding the handle bars, and run alongside your bike till you stop. Or hit something. But you won't lowside.

CaptDale - is secretly British > bob and john 09/08/2016 at 19:47

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That’s impressive

AdverseMartyr > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 19:53

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Something I haven’t seen mentioned specifically is the gyroscopic effect of the wheels. Someone mentioned that if the front tire keeps its grip that it won’t lowside.

If I remember right, that is because as long as the back wheel is spinning it will try to force itself upright.

I had an incident where I turned left from a stop, and hit the throttle hard on a gs500. There was some gravel that the back tire hit, and it pushed out. My body posture wasn’t nearly as good as the SV Wrangler’s, but it was still a bit lower than the bike’s angle.

The back end stepped out, I thought I was going to be sliding on the bike, and the next thing I knew I was jerked upright.

So yeah, if the back tire can grab and if it is still receiving torque it will stand up. Science.

That was probably my worst code brown except for the Tacoma that blew a redlight by 30 seconds and hit the last inch of my rear tire as I turned left in front of him.

bob and john > CaptDale - is secretly British 09/08/2016 at 19:59

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thank you! I do like to think that I know my way around a bike...errm...and around a corner ON a bike :)

CaptDale - is secretly British > bob and john 09/08/2016 at 20:06

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Yeah definitely way beyond my skills thus far.

Vee Ate Injun > AdverseMartyr 09/08/2016 at 20:17

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from studying videos of crashes on “The Snake” (Mulholland Hwy), your incident with your GS500 sounds like how a potential lowside turns into a definite highside and throws the rider over.

Example (ouch): http://youtu.be/rlMbFlPzS24

CRider > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 20:17

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It is easy! You just need perfect balance and a lot of practice. And maybe some extra plastics, brake levers and handlebars.

Vee Ate Injun > CRider 09/08/2016 at 20:20

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Or... some seat time on this bad boy:

http://superbikeschool.com/about-us/machi…

Chasaboo > Vee Ate Injun 09/08/2016 at 20:52

2

The bike wants to right itself, look for your out, and let it go there.

Vee Ate Injun > Chasaboo 09/08/2016 at 21:48

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I need to find a “dirt on the apex of the corner” simulator and log some hours. Or, I buy a cheap 250cc beater sport bike and find my limits on a local road.

(Or I could just attend a workshop at a local track)

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > Vee Ate Injun 09/09/2016 at 00:47

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grab all the throttle and drift that sucker. Oh wait I only ride on dirt... well maybe it works on pavement too?

JEM > Vee Ate Injun 09/09/2016 at 02:05

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When the low side becomes a high side.

JEM > bob and john 09/09/2016 at 02:09

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If there is one thing I took away from my track day, it was to kiss the mirror. I THOUGHT I knew about body positioning but ... nope. Kiss the mirror (and your ass will follow).

AdverseMartyr > Vee Ate Injun 09/09/2016 at 04:52

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I’m thinking it could have potentially become a highside, but I would have had to have been going faster. I was starting from a complete stop, and let’s be honest a GS500 doesn’t have that many horses to help buck someone off. There wasn’t enough potential energy with me being 6'2" and 180lbs.

The other difference is that he looks to have been staying more upright while leaning the bike, where I was doing more the reverse. Though I think the bike did much the same thing: back stepped out (I would also guess that it wasn’t nearly as much as that guy either), and then came upright.. Looking at the video his position on the bike meant he was angled off the bike when it came upright, and so his momentum was already heading the direction the bike threw him.

Don’t get me wrong, I didn’t crash that time because of circumstances, not because of skill. Change any of those variables for my incident, and it would have been painful. I’d decided to run a half mile up the road to grab a Chevron hotdog, and so I just hopped on the bike and went. I was probably in shorts and slippers - no helmet. I maybe had jeans on, but probably not.

Vee Ate Injun > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 09/09/2016 at 18:54

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Yes? (when in doubt, add more throttle...)

Vee Ate Injun > AdverseMartyr 09/09/2016 at 19:02

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Yeah, some of the guys on here suggested that the bike leans less and you hang off/lean to help the bike around the turn, and that helps keep you out of trouble.

It’s always good to analyze our performance after any incident (or near incident) - I think it keeps us honest and reminds us of the potential danger.

Speaking of potential danger, we have helmet laws here in CA so I’ve yet to ride a motorcycle at speed without a helmet, but I could definitely see the appeal (closest thing to flying without leaving the ground). I just don’t trust the other drivers around here enough to go without one even if I could.

Cheers.

Vee Ate Injun > JEM 09/09/2016 at 19:15

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Indeed: